Wendy McCallum (01:58)
Hello there, welcome back to The Coaching Edge. I'm your host, Wendy McCallum. Today, we are gonna be talking about a topic that is a little bit off course from what we normally talk about on this podcast, which is really the business of coaching and strategies and approaches to building a really sustainable, resonant, profitable, solopreneur coaching business. We're gonna talk today more about the actual nuts and bolts of coaching clients and coaching sessions themselves.
because this is a topic that comes up time and time again when I'm supporting coaches. We talk about this problem a lot inside office hours. We brainstorm and work through different ways to do exactly what I'm gonna talk about today in this episode with specific client examples inside the BBB. it just, felt like something that was really...
ripe for sharing in a bigger way on this podcast, because I think this is going to help everybody out there because this is something that happens to all of us. And I think the more experienced you are as a coach, the better you get at just sort of rolling with it when this happens. And that's probably because you have built up confidence around both your ability to pivot and go with it, but also
confidence in the fact that the client sessions go where the client sessions need to go and it is actually not a problem when a coaching session goes off script. So that's what we're talking about today. What to do when a coaching session goes in a direction that you were not expecting it to go. And sometimes what that feels like to coaches is, my gosh, we are going into territory here that I do not feel confident.
coaching somebody in or this feels like out of scope or off of the topic that this person actually hired me to support them around. I'm gonna help you today. First of all, we're gonna normalize that because that is just part of coaching. And I am actually hoping that today you sort of glean and get a different perspective on this that will really help you in coaching sessions.
serve your client a whole lot better and also just make you a lot more comfortable with this. this is what I'm talking about. I'm talking about that moment when you're in the middle of a coaching session or maybe it's even at the beginning. Sometimes for me, this happens right at the end of a coaching session, in which case it's something that I will deal with. I will let the client know that this seems important and that maybe this is something good to focus on next time.
but these types of moments can happen really at any point in a coaching session, but the client just suddenly says or goes somewhere completely unexpected. The conversation shifts either emotionally, like suddenly the client is overcome with emotion that wasn't there before and or directionally. So they're just talking about something that is completely different from what you were talking about before or what you thought was the focus of the conversation.
And you feel that internal voice say, my God, what is happening? And I don't know what to do next. This is such a common moment for coaches. And I just wanna really normalize this first by saying that this happens to everyone. It happens to me constantly. I think the way that I respond and feel about it is different now than it was in the early days of coaching, know, when I started 15 years ago.
but it still happens to me because it is just part of coaching and it's actually a really healthy part of coaching. It happens at every level. It happens for new coaches. It happens for senior experience coaches and master coaches. It is not a sign that you are doing anything wrong as a coach. It has nothing to do, frankly, with your skills as a coach. How you respond to it does though, and that's really what we're gonna talk about today. This isn't about.
fixing or changing that and trying to come up with a system or a strategy as a coach to reduce the likelihood that that happens in a coaching session, that's not the goal. The goal here is to normalize this because it is so, so common and such a part of, you know, really pure.
curiosity driven coaching, is what we're to talk about in a second, but also help you understand like why it shows up and how to relate to it differently as a coach. So if you have ever had that moment in a coaching session, or if you're a newer coach and that's the thing that terrifies you, please keep listening to this episode because I think you're going to not only realize that you are not alone in this at all, but also, as I said, hopefully get a different lens through which you see this going forward, which will really help you.
and it will also serve your clients really well. So I think that what we think the problem is in that moment is that we have somehow done something wrong. So, you know, we are, I found ourselves in a place where we don't know what to do. That's the assumption we make, like, I don't know what to do here. What do I do with this? I don't have the right question or I don't have the right skillset for this or I don't know what the tool is to offer here. I'm missing something.
or my training isn't sufficient and I need more training as a coach to deal with this, I'm just out of my depth. I think that's the common assumption. But here's the thing, the panic that we feel in that moment is really or very rarely about a lack of skill or training. And instead what we're talking about there is this attachment to an agenda that most of us have as coaches. And this is what I really want.
to focus on today and talk about is the difference between agenda-based or agenda-driven coaching and curiosity-driven coaching. So I'm gonna talk you through these two sort of models of coaching. agenda-based coaching is not really true pure coaching, in my opinion, it's something different. But it is often what we do as coaches, and it is something that you can train yourself out of. If you start...
becoming aware of it and noticing it, which I suspect is going to happen after you listen to this episode and you get back into client sessions, you can just start noticing it and changing it as you go. And this is, I guarantee you, going to make you a better coach. So.
What we're talking about here is what happens in that moment of I don't know what to do. And the reason that we have that thought of, my gosh, what do I do next? I don't know what to do. Is because we are holding an agenda for that client without even realizing it really most of the time we have no idea.
The agenda or the outcome that we might be holding for that client in that moment might be something like, have to leave them at the end of this coaching session with an action step. Like I have to give them something to work on between now and the next time. How am gonna do that? Or I've got to get them to a place of clarity. Or I need to move them towards a solution. And sometimes we even think we know what that solution is. So we're driving them towards a very specific solution. Or.
if it's the case where the client has, you know, switched tracks and is talking about something that seems unrelated to us to what the original coaching engagement was supposed to be about, then we might have an agenda around like getting them back on track. So, you know, we're supposed to be working on X, how do we end up over here? So,
What happens when we are thinking any of those things or some other version of like, I need to get them somewhere else or somewhere specific. We have that agenda is that we start planning the next question. We come out of listening mode and into like, you know, an action sort of mode of like, what's the next thing I'm going to do? What can I do to get them back on track?
And we start asking questions that we think are going to steer the client towards what we think they need or what we think will be useful for them. And that is really agenda-based coaching. And of course, in that model, when you are coaching with an agenda or with a desired outcome for your client, you also feel responsible for their progress and for the amount of insight that they get and for the momentum that they have or don't have. It starts to become
more about us and less about the client in terms of who knows best. And that is the thing that we want to be avoiding all the time at all costs in coaching. Just a reminder, and you know I've said this before in the podcast and I say this all the time to coaches that I support because it's an easy thing for coaches just to forget. It is not our job to give advice or provide solutions. That is not what coaching is about. Now you might as a coach have a
dual role. Maybe you're also a consultant or a teacher or educator and coaching is part of what you do, in which case you have maybe a consulting hat and you have a coaching hat. But if we're talking about pure coaching, a coach who is engaged in pure coaching is not there to provide advice. We are not there to drive or steer somebody towards a specific outcome. We are not there to offer a solution to a problem.
That is not what coaching is about. And when we are engaged in this agenda driven or agenda based or outcome based coaching, that's exactly what's happening. And that is why in that moment, when the client suddenly switches tax or a big emotion becomes present in the room that wasn't there before, or they drop kind of a truth bomb on you, that's why you have that moment of panic of like, my God, what do I do next? Okay?
Let's give some examples here. Maybe that'll help you to sort of put this in context. let's say a client comes in and they want help with productivity. They're really struggling with like time management, getting things done. And you've been working on that with them in sessions. And then all of a sudden in a session, they're talking about how disconnected they feel in their marriage. That is a major course change. And if you are agenda based coaching, then you might think to yourself, okay, but how does this relate?
to your time management, like how is this even relevant? And then you're thinking to yourself, we are off topic and I don't know what to do here. What you need to do in that moment when you find yourself thinking, I don't know what to do, is instead of thinking of that as a bad thing, start using that as a cue. It's like a soft cue to remind yourself gently of the fact, this is actually how coaching is supposed to go.
I'm not supposed to know what to do all the time. It is not my job to steer and that's what I'm trying to do here. This discomfort that I'm feeling isn't about a lack of skill on my part. It is that I'm actually trying to steer this client and I'm engaged in or, you know, sort of invested in some kind of an outcome for this client. So let's contrast that with what I would call curiosity based coaching.
And this is also for me, given the training that I've had as a coach, also co-active coaching. And so those are two different things like curiosity driven coaching, let's go of the need to get anywhere specific. So there is no outcome that the coach has in terms of a desired outcome for that client. Other than something like I'd like them to feel.
better about this thing than they feel about it when we first started, right? Like that's a very broad feeling based objective that I, for example, would have with most of my clients. I want my clients to feel differently and to feel however they would like to feel about this area of challenge by the end of our coaching engagement. But I don't have a specific outcome in terms of like a behavior based outcome or an insight based outcome. Certainly not for
for a client in a session. So when we're talking about this curiosity driven, it's letting go of that need for the session to go somewhere specific. it's reminding yourself of the fact that you're not there to fix or resolve a problem. That's not what coaches do. You're just like following what needs the space. That's how I like to think about it when I'm coaching. Like something new comes up, I think to myself, this is like requiring
some time, this is requiring some space right now for this person. And really trusting as a coach that insight will come and that you can't force insight with a client. you know, again, detaching from any particular outcome for that client. So if we were talking about that previous example that I gave where a client had come to you for some support around time management and productivity and then ended up raising this big, you know, red flag about
not feeling connected in their marriage in a coaching session. If you were engaged in curiosity driven coaching, then you might just say something in that moment like, something feels really important about this. Can we stop here for a moment? Or can you tell me what's important about this? Or just simply tell me more about that. So you don't need to have a solution. You don't need a tool. You don't need a tactic. But what you do need to do is recognize, okay,
something has come up here that requires some space. The client has raised this for reason, and I'm gonna get curious about that particular topic. So you don't have to justify how this thing fits in the bigger coaching engagement, you just have to trust that it does, basically. Let's talk about big emotions, because this is another thing that throws coaches off all the time. And it's actually like a specific...
module and focus inside of my CCSI, which is my Confident Coaching Skills Intensive that I offer for coaches, I talk about how to coach clients and support clients through big emotions because emotions are part of coaching, but they really can throw coaches for a loop, especially coaches who have had zero training around how to support clients and big emotions. And they can really feel like the client is going off on a track that is not.
where they're supposed to be, putting that in air quotes again, from the agenda-based coaching model. So if that happened, let's say a client just bursts into tears in a session and you're not expecting it, an agenda-based coaching response would sound like, no, this is not the plan. What do I do now? How do I fix this? But curiosity-driven coaching in that situation would be something like, all right, something meaningful here.
has come up here, something meaningful is has surfaced with this conversation. Let's slow this down and give it the space that it needs. I always say to my clients, actually, this is something that I do in my sort of my initial call with them, where I sort of explained to them what the coaching is going to look like and what it's not going to look like. And we talk through sort of some of the
the practical expectations that I might have of them and they can have of me and just so they have a sense of how this is all gonna go. I do talk about emotion usually with my clients and I say, look, emotion's gonna happen. That is part of coaching and all emotion says to me is that whatever you are talking about in that moment or we are talking about matters to you. And so when a client feels comfortable enough to express emotions in a coaching session, that's actually very helpful for me as a coach.
It gives me a clue that this thing that is being discussed is actually really important and we should spend some time on it. So it can be helpful to set that up in advance for clients, but you can also say that in the moment when the client has an emotional response to something. I can see that this is important to you. I can see that this matters to you. Let's just slow this down and spend some time talking about that. How would that feel?
the difference here, the simplest way to distinguish between this curiosity based coaching, which is what I'm going to encourage you to do and the agenda based coaching is to get out of the I don't know what to do moment. And when that happens, just remind yourself of the fact that your agenda is actually not important or relevant here.
and that this is the perfect time to just invite some curiosity in.
Don't try to solve the problem, don't try to steer, instead just listen and stay curious, ask the next curious
Now, I want to also clarify here because oftentimes when I talk about this whole idea of staying away from agenda-based or outcome-based coaching, people take that to mean that I don't think that outcomes in a coaching engagement matter.
Outcomes matter a lot. I really pride myself on getting clear on what the clients goals are through the coaching engagement, how they're feeling now, how they're behaving now versus how they would like to feel about this area of challenge and how they would like to behave around this area of challenge. And my goal as a coach is to help them move towards that in the coaching sessions. So outcomes absolutely matter. I want my clients to feel like they've got great value and made tremendous progress in working with me, got some insight, really good insight and clarity and
for most of the time that also involves taking action. But on a session to session basis, I do not have a specific agenda or outcome for that client. I'm not manufacturing an outcome or a goal for them. They are getting clearer and gaining more insight through the curiosity based coaching that's happening. And that is helping them to figure out what the next right step for them is as opposed to me knowing what that is and telling them what that is. And this is really where that
co-active piece comes in that I just mentioned this idea of coaching in a co-active way, which is the model that I was trained in through what was then the Coactive Training Institute and is now the Coaches Training Institute, which is a really well established, I think the original sort of OG coaching school. And their model is based on this idea that the coach and the client are in coaching co-actively, they're in it together. It is not being led.
by one person more than the other, both of the people are in our co-active relationship together with the coaching. And I'm always, always trying to remind myself of that. And that is based on the assumption that every person that I coach, and that includes you listening to this podcast and getting some coaching, getting some information from me, is already naturally creative, resourceful and whole. You have everything that you need inside of you.
You have the answers, you have the intuition, you know what's right for you. And my job as a coach is through a curiosity-based coaching model to help you tap into that, tap into that insight, that clarity, that knowing that you already have for yourself. so curiosity-driven coaching obviously requires not knowing the answers. This throws people off.
sometimes, but I'm telling you, the most freeing thing as a coach is to really just embrace this. It is not my job to have the answers. It is not my job to have the solution. That is not what I am here for. I do not need to know what the right thing is. That is not actually my job. Because if you already know where the session is supposed to go or where the coaching engagement is supposed to go, you're actually, you're not co-creating anything. You are driving that boat.
you are steering the client towards something and that might not be the right thing for the client. In fact, most of the time it's probably not. So it is all about being present as opposed to directing. So the thing that really matters is that you're fully present in sessions, you're open, you're listening and you're asking curiosity based questions. And remember that that moment that happens in a coaching session that we're talking about in this episode,
where you are thinking to yourself, do not know what to do with this. That is an invitation to lean more deeply into listening and to just stay curious. Do not try to solve in that moment. Take a pause. Pausing is totally okay in coaching and a lot of coaches really resist the pause because they're really uncomfortable with silence. And this is actually something that for me has been a lifelong
not lifelong, but in the 15 years I've been coaching, and actually probably before that too, has been a struggle for me. I am not comfortable with silence. I always want to fill it. But I, through the years that I have been coaching, have realized that actually the most incredible insights sometimes come in silence for people. And if you just give people a little more time, you'll be amazed what your client will come up with next and what will come out of their mouth. So...
Feel free to take a pause in that moment when you're like, hmm, this just went in a direction I wasn't expecting. Remind yourself of the fact that there isn't really a direction that you should be expecting here and everything is going exactly the way that it should. And this is a really good time to just take a pause, create some more space. And then when you do respond, respond in just a deeply curious way. And easy questions are just like a simple question of...
I, know, stating, validating, like, I can see that this matters to you, that's a really good thing to say if there's an emotion that's present. I can see this is important to you, I can see that this really matters to you. What can you tell me about?
That is a very open-ended question and you do not know what is gonna come in terms of a response, but it's also curious and it leaves space for whatever the client is feeling and thinking in that moment. So again, this whole episode is geared on reminding you that not knowing what to do is not a problem to solve as a coach. It is a signal or a clue that it's time to release your agenda, release your desired outcome.
and really go back to curiosity. This is what is gonna make you an excellent coach. This is gonna be so helpful. And I really wanna encourage you to start practicing this more. Start paying attention, be mindful around how often you're suggesting a solution, an outcome, a tool, a tactic, a strategy in an effort to get the client back on track or to get the client to a certain place in that session. And what happens when you resist.
you actively become aware of that and resist that in a session. Because what happens when you're clinging to that agenda in a session is that you're probably going to over-question, you're just going to be rapid-fire questioning, not leaving the space for answers. You're going to be jumping to offer insight as opposed to giving the client space to tap into their own insight. You often miss the boat completely when you do this. You skip over the big thing for the client.
can lead to the client feeling not validated and also unheard, which is never good. And the cost of that is obviously that the client goes away from the session, not feeling heard, not feeling satisfied. And the value in that session is just not gonna be there for that client, which not only affects that client's experience and value, but also...
from the bigger picture in your business is gonna impact how that client talks about you with other people and the referrals or lack of referrals that you might get from those sessions. So the harder we try to control the outcome in a coaching session, the less spacious our coaching becomes. And the goal is to make coaching spacious. The goal is to create space for these things. And I know it can feel really scary when something is completely new and unexpected, but you can handle it. You can handle it. And...
just staying curious is the solution. So if you're thinking to yourself, I don't know how to coach somebody through relationship problems, you do. The way to do it is to stay curious and just ask the next curious question to create space for the conversation. So again, asking yourself in that moment, what needs the space and what would happen if I stay curious in here instead of
you know, trying to be useful, again, in air quotes, by directing this person somewhere, because what you're really trying to do is create the conditions for them to tap into that insight, into that clarity, into their own intuition in the moment. You are not trying to get them anywhere. You're trying to create the space. And the more questions you pepper them with, the less space there is for that to happen. So confidence in your coaching does not come from having a
plan. It comes from trusting the process and the person who's right there with you, right? That is the co-active model. And I promise you, like this, it's actually really simple, but unfortunately it's a piece that I think gets missed in a lot of certifications and trainings. And I think a lot of the coaches that I support inside the BBB, especially the newer coaches, really want to have a specific plan. They really want to know what the right next question is. And the truth is, I don't know what the right next question is ever.
in a coaching session. I just ask the next curious question, right? And more often than not, that opens something else up. So if you are someone who has struggled with this, who has experienced this, which I am going to go out on a limb and say, is everyone who's listening to this podcast episode, and you have found yourself in that situation where you're trying, you're scrambling to figure out the next like smart right question.
I really want you to go just tap into some of those really big open-ended curious questions. What about this matters to you? What about this is important? What about this are you not saying? What about this is something that is important enough for us to spend more time on? There are a lot of just like easy open-ended big curious questions that you can ask and also do not forget the power of the pause.
and practice that going forward when you find yourself in that moment. Take a pause and use that as a reminder to yourself, a time to remind yourself, right, I'm not supposed to solve this. I'm not supposed to steer this. That doesn't serve the client. Instead, I'm supposed to notice, validate whatever has shown up here and create space for further conversation. And that honestly is it. That is the trick.
that will serve you. So you don't have to know what to do in every moment, but you do need to learn, and this is something that you learn through practice, just to stay present and really resist that urge to direct the conversation because that is where the powerful coaching lives. And this is going to serve your clients really well, and it's going to serve you really well in your coaching business because you are going...
to see real transformation happening inside your coaching container with your clients. Whether we're talking one-on-one or group here, this approach is applicable across the board in coaching and you're going to see the benefits of this in terms of your clients themselves and the transformation that they have also, how people talk about you and your reputation as a really excellent coach, which is what I'm hoping this will.
take you closer to you're already a good coach. I know that this is something that we all have to stay aware of and pay attention to because all of us slip into this at some point in a coaching session. I mean, it happens honestly, I would say at least once or twice in every coaching session. I noticed that I'm starting to slip into an agenda or starting to try to steer and it's the awareness piece that's important here.
It's not about shaming myself or saying, oh, you're a terrible coach, why are you going there? It's about noticing it and course correcting and staying curious and getting back into deeper listening. That's what makes coaches really good coaches. So I hope you found this helpful. As always, I love to hear from you. So if you have any thoughts on this episode.
or you go away and practice this in your own coaching and you have any insights from that that you want to share with me, you can always send me an email at wendy at wendymichallamcoach or connect with me through the DMs on Instagram. I'm at wendymichallamcoach on Instagram. And if you have ideas for future episodes or you'd like to hear more about this type of topic, let me know that too, because I am really aiming on this podcast to be as responsive as possible and to just provide whatever is going to be helpful.
to you guys, my listeners. And on that note, I appreciate every share, I appreciate every like, I appreciate every subscribe on this podcast. It helps me get this podcast out to other coaches. If you haven't noticed, this is not a sponsored podcast. It won't be a sponsored podcast. My goal right now is to keep this unsponsored. I don't get paid for this podcast. And it is difficult for me to get this podcast out to other coaches. So every time you...
share this podcast with somebody else, let somebody else know that this podcast is out there, or like an episode or subscribe to this. It helps me algorithm wise and it helps people find this podcast. So thank you very much for doing that if you have already done that and if you haven't please consider doing that for me. I would really really appreciate it. Now one last note on this, this type of stuff is really where the CCSI, my Confident Coaching Skills Intensive was born.
And the CCSI will be offered again at the time of recording this podcast. I don't know exactly when, but there is a plan to offer it. So if you're thinking to yourself, I don't need another certification. I just need to learn more of this kind of stuff. And I need to really build my skills as a coach and my confidence through practice and actually learning more about what coaching really is about and how to handle different types of
issues and topics that might arise or challenges with clients that are common that arise in the coaching engagement, I would really encourage you to check out the CCSI. I'll put the link in the show notes and by the time this podcast airs, there should be some more information on when the next cohort is starting. Thanks for listening as always and I'll see you next time on The Coaching Edge.
